Podcast
Transcript
[00:00] Hello listeners and welcome back to Quote Unquote with KK. This is season 6, which we are beginning after a slight break due to my health reasons. I want to make a short introduction on what and what we have been doing so far as one of the tracks that we keep bringing onto our podcast were people who are brand gurus, who are marketers, who are professors and thought leaders and authors. In a previous seasons. We I’ve got Harish Bijur, who’s a brand guru in the real
[00:33] Chakrabarti, who was a storyteller and a brand marketer. Dr. Jagdish said needs no introduction. Jesse Paul, my ex colleague from Wipro. Ashish Dhawan from the advertising field. Today’s podcast is slightly different. You see that over the last few years, a lot of influencers. Have come on board due to social media and we talked about it slightly during Jesse Paul’s podcast as well. I happened to a book whose authors are in front of you today. A very interesting duo I would say.
[01:05] It took me a few months to get them today together due to logistics. And my health reasons. But I’m really glad that we are connecting and talking together. So the context of today’s podcast. Is as follows. We explore very powerful invisible forces in our lives, in our organizations, in our politics, as well as in our country. And what we seek is reputation, whether that finds who you are, what you are. And today’s duo, the gentleman who we are talking to are gurus in that field.
[01:37] In fact, they have written a book on reputation management and I’m going to put that link into today’s podcast as well. Please go and look into and buy that book. It’s available on Kindle as well as on Amazon and they have their own website as well. I’ll put that link as well. A quick intro of the book that I have read their book, The Pursuit of Reputation. It’s a practical guide to navigating India’s evolving public relations landscape, emphasizing reputation as the cornerstone of success for both
[02:08] individuals and organization. It blends historical insight, contemporary challenges, and expert perspectives to show how authenticity, transparency, and adaptability are essential in today’s competitive environment. In short, the book argues that reputation is the most valuable currency in today’s interconnected world, especially the digital media and in fast changing India’s public relation landscape as well. It’s both philosophical in my perspective as a reflection and
[02:41] a practical manual as well in these uncertain times of what we are seeing both on social media and digital media as well as our what we call as our traditional and now go the media as well. So in today’s podcast, we are going to talk to Amit Prabhu and Sujit Patil, both are veterans in this field. The book, I think you should show the book now. I also have the cover of the book. Yeah. And the website. I’m going to In pursuit the pursuit of reputation and all.
[03:14] I’m really going to connect today as our team of the podcast is managing reputation, character, company, caucus, cinema and country. So there are threads around these which we are going to link as they seem to be interconnected in one way or the other. And who best can answer these today? We’ll start with the basics one O 1 of what is reputation. And then we’ll take each and everyone character, which is individual company, corporate caucus, which is the political
[03:44] and group. And then we’ll go over to cinema durander type a lot of things that happens there because people are now talking a lot on durander and the after effects. And then we’ll go to the country, India’s reputation. I want to briefly touch with the whole issue of digital and then end up with a rapid fire round of questions and answers. It’s a packed agenda today. So welcome gentlemen, to the podcast. Finally, we are face to face today on this. Pleasure, case pleasure.
[04:15] I know it’s taken a long time to for all of us to get together, but now that we’re here, let’s make the best. Yeah, and let’s get the bang for the buck for reputation of all of us today. It’s on stage. Lovely. Let me get started with A1 on one question. According to you, what does reputation mean in India? I know the English, British and the US reputation word is very different, but in the Indian context, what does reputation mean to you it? Is so be it any context, be it any country, be it any culture. I think reputation is reputation.
[04:46] You know, reputation for me, in a very simplistic manner is something to deal with. You know what people talk about you when you’re not in the room. You know, what is, what is it that you’ve demonstrated as behaviours, what have you done and what are the precedents that you set and what people imagine you are is your reputation. I think in a corporate context it’s a very powerful term. Of course in a personal context also it’s a major thing, but in a corporate context it gives you the right to exist, it gives you the right to attract employees,
[05:16] it gives you the right to ask for a premium for your products. It is something which is intangible, but it’s very powerful and it is something which people align to when they are in a confusion stage in terms of preferring or a brand. So if your reputation is higher, they’ll prefer you and if your reputation is not good, they might just avoid you. So it’s, it’s a very powerful and a very, very invisible thing. You know it’s invisible until it’s gone. You know, people realize the power of reputation and importance of reputation once it’s lost. And as they say, you know, it
[05:48] takes years to build a reputation, but probably seconds to kill it. And as Amit always says, you know, reputation is 90% behaviour and 10% communication. So your behaviour is the base, how you behave, behaviour how you conduct yourself, how consistent are you with your values, how you demonstrate them. I can go on and on and on if you want to add something to that. I think we just covered everything and in one word reputation is almost equal to behaviour and therefore the word public relations sometimes is misunderstood. It’s it’s used wrongly by people.
[06:20] But reputation is equal to public relations is equal to behaviour. Public relations is nothing but behaviour of a certain entity with its stakeholders. So reputation is equal to behaviour is equal to public relations is what I believe and Sujit has explained that in detail. Tell. Me one thing I’m a Hindi speaking mother tongue is Hindi. Does ijat and reputation mean the same thing? Or kuchwala gay? Jose is that meaning in English is that it’s difficult to. You want to define for Amit what what context you’re talking about in as an ijat? Khurki jat apni jat deshki jat you know, in all contexts they.
[06:54] It has a wearing for it, but you know, is that something you carry into a room in your present Reputation is something when you’re not in the room and people say, wow, KK is an amazing guy. What a podcast he’s got, what a amazing demeanor he’s got. He’s such a powerful businessman. I mean, that’s your reputation. People will respect you for your reputation. I think it’s got bearings with each other. It’s got a connection. But I think there’s no other word that can define reputation in Hindi or Urdu that comes closer than the word results that he just said, Yeah.
[07:24] I think so. It’s made us think, actually, we’ve never thought about that, maybe. Hindi. Hindi. The reputation of the pursuit of is that, yeah. It’s just management. It’s just management, yeah. Yeah, like people might say reputation. I think in that context it works. Great. At least I made you think on the first one. Absolutely made us think and let’s go to something much for software. What bonded you together? How did you get together?
[07:55] And then finally decided writing a book. I’ve never found a book on reputation management. By the way, this is the first book I’m reading on rapid hair. There’s so many books, so many best sellers, but nothing on reputation. We’re in 2026, so I’ve known Sujit for over 15 years now. So in 2009, when I first heard of him, I wrote to him an e-mail saying I want to meet you because for me there are very few role models in corporate communications at that time and had become one of them because of his long stint then with Tata Chemicals. Now he’s with Godrej for more than a decade and he agreed to
[08:26] meet me in Bandra, I remember for coffee. He doesn’t remember that maybe, but that meeting happened for half an hour. 2011 I moved to Chicago to work with a global #1 PR firm called Edelman. And as part of that I was involved with IABC, a global communications association. And Sujit was a very active member from India. And it so happened that I had seen his name in the list of attendees because I was in the organizing team as a volunteer. And the event was starting off on a Thursday evening, and I was standing at the entrance to the main arena for the opening dinner, and Sujit and another gentleman from India were
[08:57] walking there. And I suddenly recognized Sujit and I knew he was coming for it. And we hit it off. That was the moment I always remember. It was in Michigan Ave. in Chicago. And we hit it off. And then the entire evening we hung out together with the other gentleman, Rajiv Kumar, I remember. And then we kept in touch. I came back to India to build on this Praxis conference. And Sujit became a major supporter of Praxis because he believed in it. And like him, the others who joined the band as well. And between 2011 and 2110 years, we kept in touch. He supported various things we did. We organized an annual
[09:27] communications or influencer conference in his campus at Godrej, which he had moved to by then from Tata Chemicals in Vikroli. Then COVID happened and everybody was quiet in the first few months of COVID, wondering what’s happening. But when things were looking slightly better, it was somewhere in the middle of or end of 2021, two things happened. There was a friend of mine who even Sujit was well known to and close to called Anant Rangaswamya. And his name always comes up in a conversations around a book. He’s a famous marketing editor who’s sadly no more. He’s. Later. In fact, May, this is the month we lost him three years ago.
[09:58] Anyway, so Ananth was nudging me saying why is there no good book in PR? You do so much in PR, why can’t you write a book on PR? And I said, I don’t have the motivation to be an author, but I want to write one someday. So what is someday someday is now you have the lockdowns going on, your free time. And just then another PR book had come out, which was having a lackluster response, which is fine. And Sujit and I started talking on call one day about that book and we said we need to really up the game of PR and bring out a book with our years of experiments which has at least a tickets experience more than me.
[10:28] And I said, Are you sure we can write 1? He said yes, if you are in it, I’m in it. And we told Anant that hey, this book is an idea you had seen in my mind and we’re doing it. He said by all means go ahead and I’ll give you all the support you want to give, the guidance, the mentorship. And that’s how the whole idea of the book was born. We had a different thought for that book and Anant trashed that thought and said this book, not even your family will buy, change the whole idea behind the book. And then we said, OK, we’ll go with a completely radical thought. And Anand said this is great. And we began putting the book together. I would say between Delta and Omicron, between those two variants, our book came
[11:00] together. We said we have 20. 54 talks a lot about Anand as well. You’ve made a mention of several places. Had he not nudged me and Sujit together, we would have not been maybe bringing that book to life at that time. It would have happened later on. And if he was a lie, maybe we would have talked less of him. The fact that he’s no more, we keep talking about him because that’s our tribute to him. Yes. So that’s how the book came to life. And in all of 2021, we wrote this book in multiple settings on Zoom. We sat in Goa a couple of times, we sat in Gurgaon in Bombay. So this book happened over three
[11:32] cities and virtually we put together about 1718 chapters together. And then we kept it in cold storage because we didn’t want to launch the book without a proper physical launch and COVID was still showing it signs of coming back. So we kept it in the cold storage. And then we found through a common connection, a literary agent who took us to couple of publishers and one publisher of Westland immediately lapped it up. And rest is history we can say. And then in 2023, September 5th, which is Teachers Day, we said we’ll teach the world a little more about PR And that’s how the book came to life. But another point is we feel
[12:05] that we are just custodians of the idea of this book. There are many people who have done much more and great work for reputation. So we decided to add some of the paragraphs from those people in this book. So the book is co-authored by us. So 80% of the book is our content. There’s 20% that comes from these 75 people to make it a community initiative of sorts in some way. And I really love the way you guys have put it. And I think today’s podcast, we can also dedicate if with your permission, in the loving memory of Anand, no. Problem at all? Yes. By all means, I think he was the guiding force and I think
[12:37] cherish those late night Zoom calls. It is locked down and there was no chance of meeting each other in person. So night calls on the Zoom, on Ms. Teams and I think that really worked the wonder. And, and we also thank the lockdown. I mean, it’ll sound really sadistic, but that really gave us some breathing time and pace to actually do something with the hectic schedules that Amit has and I have, I don’t think we would have written half the book. But today, if you ask us, we can bang off a book in maybe six months time because we know exactly what the process is.
[13:07] I’m going through that same process and somebody’s nudging me to write. I mean, my blogs and so many other things are there. You should, you should, you should, but it is just that something is just that motivation internal to just sit and just thrash it out. I can say that as well. So I empathize what you guys gone through and what you are actually shared. Let’s go back to individuals. That is the character part of our podcast today. Again, ijet or they say reputation is always the invisible currency of success
[13:38] and how each. Of you personally define reputation, why does it matter even more in today’s context, especially when there is this whole boom of social media influence? Fact checkers and then the whole digital tech of ORM. Why is it even more important than what it was in the past? I think it’s, it’s a significant importance. I’ll use some data points, you know, data in terms of the crisis landscape of 2026. I think I’ve I’ve dug out some data.
[14:08] Whatever I remember, I’ll share which and a due credit to the Edelman Trust Barometer, the Reputation Capital Council Scorecard of 2026, Gallup 2025 survey from the employer angle, Reuters 2026, various reports. And these are reports which demonstrate some few trends which really are so important and giving CEO’s sleepless nights. I think #1 is, you know, the 78% of CEO’s acknowledge reputational weaknesses that have already impacted the
[14:39] company’s trading performance. You know, stocks are falling, trading under pressure. The preparedness in terms of technology, the AI preparedness gap, only 40% feel that they’re adequately prepared. There’s a huge amount of trust erosion. If you see the reports globally, 70% of the consumers and people are hesitant to trust those with different values and backgrounds. It’s all the more important that brands start building that connect. There’s a lot of uncertainty. 42.9% identify uncertainty as the external factor which has
[15:10] actually created a negative business impact. So as to say some more data in terms of what is happening in the overall thing when it comes to the landscape, the business landscape is that there are a lot of values driven boycotts happening. You know 51% people as per the reports have stopped shopping at brands that did not align with their personal values. All the more important reputation has to be built and aligned. A Media Trust is collapsed. About 28% public trust in mass media, 28% trust mass media. That’s what I want to say.
[15:40] And in, in, in the American context, 34% of the Americans don’t even have any trust in mass media. And these are coming out of global reports. Publishers are expecting that the traffic on their sites are going to be falling over the next few years by 40%. And there’s a big authenticity crisis when all these things are prevalent. What happens is people are becoming more aware the screen level as people are calling out things which companies profess but don’t deliver. There’s a lot of green washing, there’s a lot of blue washing,
[16:11] there’s a lot of pink washing. So the whole scenario and on top of it, the geopolitical issues, advent of technology, the fear of AI, I mean, there are multiple parameters. Now, how do you navigate through this whole ambiguous situation and make a mark? I think your only weapon is reputation. When you have a reputation where people trust you, where people believe you, where people are willing to give you that respect and buy your products, it works. When it comes to employees, I mean, there have been reports where the Gen. Z are looking at organizations
[16:42] who have great reputation in the space of DEI, in the space of good and green, which is sustainability. The ESG fund us and they won’t even join in an organization, even if they don’t have a job if the reputation is low. So the power and the respect that reputation per SE has garnered over these past few years is so significant imperative for people to build. ORM you alluded to is absolutely critical because most of the crisis and reputation pacting trends are happening on social media. So ORM, which is online reputation management is absolutely important unless you listen to what the people are
[17:15] saying about you. You know, we we spoke about reputation being what people speak when you’re not there. So social media when people put up narratives, there is fake news, there is deep fakes. There’s so much of things happening which were not happening 10 years back. So currently, if those are the things happening online, reputation management assumes a significant role. People have to watch what people are talking. They have to kill the incidents at the bud state so that it doesn’t become a crisis. So I think it’s very important that listening orm tools, behaviour, promises to be kept
[17:45] and trust to be maintained have become very significant. We call it trust crafting. You know, trust crafting is something which is a process which doesn’t happen in one campaign or one event. It is a consistent way in which you keep building trust with your behavior, with your demonstration of your promises. That’s the long answer for a short question, but I think we’re so passionate about that. It goes all over the place. But this is a lot of data points. Lot of data points. By the way, just for your information, we have had two podcasts with the Gallup CEO, one on his book The Blind Spot,
[18:16] which is talking on the happiness and the geopolitics of their happiness index. I think we’ll talk about that on the country and caucus, the politics and that part we’ll briefly touch. And the other one was on their whole thing during COVID, the perception on India or globally, how different countries were managing that perception on to their citizens. So we have done 2 podcasts there talking about what you’ve said, not directly as a reputation,
[18:46] but more as perception of people, where they’d surveyed and what those results of those surveys have been. Well, that’s a great start. I wanted to understand a lot of things are happening. A lot of negativity is also coming in terms of that perception and things like these. But you see a new sort of regulations are also coming out in India to protect individuals from getting harmed. For instance, there was another Kapil Khandelwal who did fraud with our Nirav Modi and people were trolling me. Ultimately, I had to warn, you
[19:17] know, those digital platforms, if any even tags me, I will file a defamation suit. It’s just defamation. The only recourse for people to protect themselves against this whole slew of trolling. How do you manage these sort of crises and situations for individuals, People like me And there are many such influencers who get trolled. I think there is no easy way out here. The fact. We need stricter regulations. We need, but our country works really differently from some other countries and we have to accept and live with that because that is how we are. And there are a lot of other
[19:50] positives in this country that we have to celebrate and appreciate. So I think, yeah, if somebody’s name is similar to another person’s name and there’s a mismatch, the person putting a social media post doesn’t care. He wants to tag. You won’t believe it. My name is Amit Prabhu. Very often if somebody has a problem with law and order, I get tagged and I wonder why then they want to tag Amit Shah. I get tagged sometimes. Often. It’s happened at least 1012 times in the last couple of years. And they’ll tag government, Prime Minister Amit. They want to tag Amit Amit and it just gets picked up. It’s part of life. You can’t do much, but if somebody. Targets you incorrectly thinking
[20:22] or assuming you have done something wrong, then obviously there is a way to go to court and we see that happening in the political spectrum. A chief minister versus a former chief minister, they will have these tips going on and then court cases that happens. But for ordinary citizens there is very little one can do. Live with it and hope and believe and pray people forget about it. I have a little bit of a different perspective on this, you know. I have to change my name from Kapil Kandelwal to Kapil Kandelwal KK. On social. Media on my web. Site and those are those are immediate records this kind of a
[20:53] thing. But I would I would suggest that what is more critical here is preparedness. When I say preparedness, it’s about how well are you preparing your own personal brand? How well are you articulating your own reputation? How well are you positioning yourself in terms of what you do, what capabilities you bring and what is it that you are putting in on the table which is of benefit to people. Once you have a kind of a anchor point that Kapil Hindelwal, who’s a podcaster, is a banker, is this guy and these are his body of works.
[21:23] These are his comments in the media. Say, for example, this is what he leads on social media. These are the terms with which he’s associated. If that preparedness is done, then any amount of other Kapil candle walls may not erode your brand value as much. So that the whole concept of creating a positive digital safety net for yourself is very critical. You know, what is positive? Digital safety Nets put in so much of positive. And of course, it has to be authentic. It has to be, it has to be demonstrable and it has to be believable. If those aspects are floating in the social media around your
[21:56] name, people can read it. People are smart. People don’t just people don’t troll for for the sake of trolling. They also read through it. I mean, you might get the initial backlash because you’re tagged, but once they realize it’s not him, the thing’s reverse. And as Amit said, most of the crises or these incidents are not long lived, but reputation is long lived. So your attitude should be to build that reputation in a way that you know, it builds your repertoire in terms of what you do, what are your pluses, how you’re serving the society and create a personal brand around. I think that preparedness is what really that reputation is
[22:28] what helps you rather than reacting to something which has happened because incidences are going to happen whether we like it or we don’t like it. Because in India, Kapil is such a powerful name, you know, so, so it’s a common like. It’s a name. In fact, the Sebi people who I report to who regulate my work actually banned me. I had to then said here is my public disclaimer in the social media, I have changed my name to Kapil Khandelwal KK. Although I have not put a Gazette notification or not done it legally on all my Aadhar and other documents.
[22:59] But this is what I have done and you can check my PAN card versus the other defaulter, whoever the misdemeanor guy is, who’s my name say finally they relented to say OK, because everybody does one. Google Kapil. Kandelwal in the negative parallax, otherwise we wouldn’t have been here. No, now it is Kapil Handelwalk KK. So that guy’s now gone down on the Google searches. Yeah, he’s been saluting now. So build a positive digital safety in it, you know, pump in a lot of authentic stuff about you, build a personal brand,
[23:29] build a kind of a situation where people engage with you in an authentic manner. And that’s, that’s the only recourse. I mean, defamation is 1 recourse. And you know how long that takes. Oh no, nothing happened. Nothing happened. So here’s something from listeners from our discussion who are influenced wannabe influencers, how to build reputation, some insights here. Now I want to talk one thing as to how do you evolve a personal reputation. You know, when I started my career in the corporate world, there was number.
[24:01] Social media, there was number. There’s nothing like that. It is what you carried around in your circles and your industry. Now, with the amplification that is there on social media, there’s too much of bombardment and there’s also a lot of people who troll you or there’s a lot of negative around somebody who’s trying to do something negative also who also gets high reputation. There are a few such individuals who do that as well, Negative reputation, I would say. How do you manage in this current digital world both
[24:32] positive and negative reputation to build your reputation now? You use the words which use the word of authenticity or being authentic. I think there is no second way of building a good reputation beyond being authentic. The first step is to be authentic, and authentic means the easiest way to want it to be genuine, to be a person who means what he or she says, who walks the talk. Simple. You can’t have two sides to the same person. You can’t say and so and so here and so and so there. It’ll get exposed. Sometime You have to be the same. Either you’re blunt with everybody all the time, or you’re very nice. There will be all them just to
[25:04] have one persona for you. You can have multiple persona. So that is how authenticity is showcased to the world. And all reputation or behavior comes from that stream of authenticity. So if people realize early on that being authentic is the only way to thrive, to succeed and they embrace that idea of authenticity, that’s it. And the reason you asked us how we got along, I think I saw in this man and maybe he saw in me back in 2009 and 11 some level of authenticity. And I won’t share names, but I asked couple of people just as a dipstick once long back, I said give me the name of one or two Copcom leaders in India that you
[25:37] look up to or you feel are good at what they do. And two or three people I spoke to at that time and there was a reason I was asking them came up with his name. I don’t know if my name comes in the same context and can say it on. So one of the most powerful man men in Indian PR. He may have run insurance with him on certain ideas, but Madan Bear had factors. And I asked Madan Bilson, I’m giving you the name also. Madan may listen to this in the future. I said he gave me two names. So the other name I’ll come to later. He said Sujit Patil, somebody me, my team looks up to and he didn’t know or didn’t have an idea. I’m his friend at that time. He said it to me generally not that there was any advantage or
[26:09] whatever else. And he had 25250 clients he could have named. He named one or two and one of them was him. And I’m saying this here. And I said, wow, I asked a couple of other people. They said, yeah, from the Tata circle, there’s another lady called Rakhi Lalwani, who’s a friend of Sujith. She also, she spoke highly of Sujith in some context. And I said, wow, this is a person I should be talking to, to learn more about Corcom in some way or the other. And and it’s his authenticity that has taken him to wherever he is. So I would say that. I think just to add to what Amit said and what you also spoke about, I think formula is very simple.
[26:40] I mean, it’s, it’s not a straightforward formula kind of the thing. But you know, Amit and I keep discussing about these three PS, you know, three PS which are there’s no semblance to the fact that my surname is Patil and he’s Prabhu. And two PS nothing to do with that. But three PS which we feel can really build reputation is are promise, proof and pattern. You know what is promise? You know, make your intent unmistakable. If you want to build your own personal brand as Kapil Khandelwal KK, I mean make your intent unmistakable. What is it that you are here
[27:11] for? What is it that you are known for? Or what do you aspire to be known for? What is the space that you want to occupy in the minds of people because brands are built between the two years right in the in the minds of people, it’s not here and there. So what is that intent which is unmistakable If that intent is clear authenticity automatically games. The second is the proof you know trust compounds with consistency. 1 great act does not create it Igbar Kuch Karlya and then you expect that people will think that he’s XYZ and the reputation doesn’t happen. 100
[27:43] consistent ones actually do that. So so that whole proof of consistent hammering of what you stand for is very critical. And the third thing is pattern. Pattern is basically to give you a point that you know, which you alluded to public scrutiny can always disappoint, you know, because there would be detractors, there would be supporters, there would be fence sitters. But a consistent behavior is where if you want to create a reputation for yourself as say, for example, I know podcasting is just one part of what you do, but if you want to create a reputation of a fantastic podcaster, what is your behavior
[28:16] in that? You know, if you hammer that continuously, that’s your reputation as a podcaster. Will Amit Prabhu, founder, Co creator, whatever you call of a platform which brings together the communications fraternity in India and abroad now together on one table, 600 of them together to have conversations, developmental conversations. Now, if you’re done just one practice, that reputation wouldn’t have been built. He’s been doing it for the last 10 years consistently year after year, getting great speakers,
[28:48] getting great conversations, you know, showcasing that he’s the Sutradhar. He’s the center point who’s actually whether he likes it or doesn’t like it, but it’s a fact that he’s actually been prime war of along with a bunch of select people in his team. They’ve made history and that’s happened year after year after year for a decade. And that’s how his reputation as a key persona within the communications fraternity as you want. So the point I’m trying to make is. It’s about reputability as well. It’s about repeatability. It’s about consistent. So I want to just counter this
[29:21] Gabbar reputation be is also something right? Pardon me, Gabbar is also Gabbar. Gabbar Singh Gabbar is also remembered for his negative side of things. But now what is the? Super made the film, wanted him to be remembered for that. So there are such characters also who have this negative reputation also where they have created against the position. Can be both positive and negative. I mean you can have. That’s what I. Want Veerapan? Veerapan who famous smuggler from South India who was killed in a police encounter many years
[29:51] ago had a reputation. But not nobody wants to be like Veerapan, right? I still remember when we were children, our parents scare us to eat our food or do saying if you don’t do Vedafone will come and scare. The reputation Vedafone had among families and parents was to scare the kids using his name and and picture newspaper. So yeah, reputation is the goal for everybody is to have a positive reputation. But some people can end up with a negative reputation also. Yeah. And that’s that’s what we see. I mean these democracy. Motivation for getting eyeballs and everything is among the Gen.
[30:22] ZS and this is yeah, how quickly do I get that is or by by negativity? Yeah, it’s a very slow process, a slow burn, and people generally tend to make mistakes. With them, correct? So that’s my thing as a key take away for individuals and influencers is you may take this as a short term steroid, but in the long term does that really stick with the world and your audiences and people around you are? You an example, take it.
[30:52] Yeah, give an example. You know, there’s a lot of influence and we deal with lot of them, the respected ones, the ones with the highest engagement, if that’s a metric for their success because that’s the metric with the brand looks at so that they talk about the particular brand and then amplify it. What is more important is if they are holding one vertical, say for example, they are experts in lifestyle, they cannot be talking about construction or something else. Or if they are in the field of engineering, they shouldn’t be talking about food. And that’s where the dilution happens.
[31:23] The expertise matters. You know, the your education matters, your expertise matter, your thought leadership, your ability to understand that particular vertical. So, so hence it’s more important for influencers if they’re listening for on this podcast, create your niche. I mean, you can’t be Jack of all trades, you know, then people won’t take you seriously. It’s important that you create one vertical, go so deep and you’ve got a market there. So here’s a checklist of what influencers should be doing and from a reputation management and PR profession, how they look to
[31:57] shortlist influencer. Great. This is what I was alluding to also as part of individual’s reputation management. Let’s move to companies. Now you’ve been in the corporate sector, we’ve done a lot on managing reputation of companies. And again, you said, you know, repeatability, what you mean to different things, but there are different stakeholders in a corporate sector and you have to signal very different type of reputation themes to different audiences. How do you bring all the as one collective Halo of a reputation
[32:31] of a company together? It’s a tough task. So I just asking this because my supplier group may be different. My shareholders have a very different perception. What I want for engaging with my employees and potential future employees is, as you mentioned, Gen. Z’s is a very different reputation management issue. And then with the regulator, the government is a very different thing. So it’s a very tough land of things. Yeah, that you need pull together as a professional to have that one holistic view of
[33:02] what that reputation is all about for that company. It’s a beautiful question. I think it’s a very complex situation, but it’s solvable. Various companies do it in different manners. I think my school of thought is very simple. In an organization, in a corporate setup, you have multiple stakeholders, your your current employees, your potential employees. You have the regulators, you the government, you have NGOs and the social sector, your academicians, your customers as you mean stakeholders. Each one of them has a different consumption pattern in terms of data or information.
[33:34] Somebody reads a newspaper, somebody consumes data on a blog, somebody watches TV advertisements, somebody goes on social media. So on one hand, you have different stakeholders, you have different media, you have different messages for each one. On top of it in in context of India, there’s diversity, there’s diversity of languages, there’s diversity of cultures, there’s diversity of religion, there’s diversity of beliefs, there is diversity of gender. So in this whole complex situation, how do you build a reputation? So the trick is pretty simple
[34:06] yet profound and it’s a long term. So how does one do it? Basically for us, what we focus on is messaging. Messaging in terms of what resonates with that particular stakeholders, using the different modes of communication, media to pitch in those communication and end of the day, measure the effectiveness. Now, when I say measure the effectiveness, how do you consolidate all of these things and say, OK, the reputation is great or the admiration for your company is great? So we’ve come out with admiration pillars. So say for example, to build a
[34:36] great reputation of an organization in a corporate setup for different stakeholders across different sectors, what are the reputation pillars? The different reputation pillars could be, what does this company do in nation building? How investment worthy is the company? How culturally sound is it? How investment friendly, investor friendly is it? How aligned is it to DEI? How aligned is it to ESG principles? So you have these pillars and the thumb rule is that if you’re seen more prominently in each of these pillars consistently, the
[35:08] probability that your company is admired goes up significantly. So then the task is simple. Your communication team then measures the messages in each of these parallels, creates messages by the base. The company should be doing those things in reality. So say for example, a company like Godrej, we have stated policies around DEI, we believe them, roll them out, we practice them at ESG. We have a vertical called Gooden Green in sustainability, which promises something, has metrics, runs with investment worthiness.
[35:38] There is consistent clear communication with the investor, with the customers. There’s a consistent communication which keeps happening. There is no element of green washing. That means we promise something in water conservation or Environmental Protection and don’t do it. That never happens. We never indulge in blue washing. We never indulge in pink washing. So I mean, otherwise we’ll be called out. So it’s a complex mix, but what needs to be done is measuring on each of these messaging, attaching them to each of the stakeholder and then rolling them out in a consistent manner, in an authentic manner again and
[36:11] again and again. That builds reputation. So in one phrase, all the things he said they do or a company does is called campaign planning. So basically there are multiple campaigns and campaigns are a bad word. We use it in elections. We use it in advertising user, in marketing, NPR as well, in reputation as well. It’s a collection of actions that lead lead to two things, lead to following the behavior pattern set by the leadership of the company. And like for example, his company’s chairman emeritus, Adi Godrich, who is somebody lot of corporate Titans in India look up to if they may not have even met him in their life, but just
[36:43] his behavior, the way he’s carried on his public persona for 8 decades or something people look up to. And in this way, like the equivalent, if I’m allowed to say in the Indian cinema world is Amitabh Bachchan, he’s in his 80s. People still look up to him because he carries two or three authentic behaviors in the profession. But personally, maybe whatever we don’t want to get there that are unique. Like I’ve heard the story from many people whom people in the film, if he’s called to a 8:00 PM event, he reaches the venue at 7:45. Very few actors do that. And he will not go there and embarrass the the organizers by
[37:14] showing himself there. He will sit in his car or get two or three rounds done at the venue and then come out at 7:55 to be there on time. And that’s something he’s practiced all his life. I went for a book launch event by the late Piyush Pandey called Pandemonium in Bombay in 2016 or 17. The chief guest was Mr. Amitabh Bachchan and I still remember that the event was 6 PMI think and 555 he was there. The dot event served on time. A lot of other guests came later and walked in, which is fine. But that’s something that is unusual for people in that because I know other actors have dealt with as part of my work
[37:45] for brands who would come fashionably late by a couple of hours and and people accept it but don’t like it. So I think the point is ultimately Amitabh Bachchan also is not doing it out of randomness. It’s his campaign plan to show the world he’s a punctual man, which has made a difference to a lot of people. Yeah. I want to again bring this whole digital thing because my experience I want to just relate and you may agree or disagree with me. You know, I was invested with a platform which was doing an algo
[38:16] based AI based ORM work and that is before AI came in which used my hedge fund L goes and went and listened and did a lot of auto responsing to different audiences on social. And what learning that I got was that different stakeholders had a very different expectation or reaction to the company and which kind of reflected in their response on social media platform. So it was a very stratified kind
[38:47] of response. A consumer gave a different signaling where else who was a supplier and his experience with the company gave a very different signaling, not as a consumer but as something else in the garb of a consumer or an audience consuming that company’s social media or the communication. And that is why I was asking you, has it not become much difficult because different platforms depending on the content users behaviour absorbs
[39:18] or the platform throws a lot of different things based on his interest. And that is where now it is becoming very different communication or a stratified PR or reputation management as what as I have learnt through my journey in ORM and what we were kind of building there. Isn’t this not a very difficult thing for professionals? Like you spend so much time and now it is becoming much more stratified and much more real time to manage these sort of expectations of brands and your company?
[39:49] No, what you’re saying I think this. Could be another topic for your next book this. Is this is a massive topic? Actually it’s it’s it’s. No, no, the years that evolved and especially post COVID, which is a different era we live in, lot of things have got complicated, lot of things have got difficult, lot of things have got machine, all spheres of life, especially in the world of communications, marketing, brand building, reputation management, no doubt about it, because people have become more aware. People who otherwise went from point A to point B in the morning to come back in the evening learned overnight they
[40:19] could sit at home and work remotely with using Zoom Teams and whatnot that you have today. So a lot of things have changed is things have become difficult. I see how socially. Self changed. Twitter was a happy place for a lot of people to exchange ideas with some skirmishes here and there was suddenly a business tycoon took over Twitter and said I’m going to change the way the world operates. And he built an entire campaign for the current president to be re elected in the US. And the whole game has changed across the world is by one person’s $44 billion investment in a social media platform, which many of us are still part
[40:50] of. It was not the case a few years back. So yes, things have changed. Things have got complicated. The narratives have completely varied from what they were earlier. It’s not easy like I was looking at my own 8 year old child and a French child, our life when you were 8-9 or so different and simple in 70s and 80s. Today it’s so much more difficult, so much more complicated because of the way the world has become. And all I can say sometimes we have to live with it, accept it. We have to ensure we have guard rails to protect our sanity and our safety in this ever complex world that we are creating together as.
[41:21] Technology advances. I think the complexities are going to go up, yeah. What remains common, what remains same, what remains stable and stationary is the art of storytelling, the craft of crafting messages, the art of engaging with consumers and the stakeholders. I mean, those basic principles don’t change. It’s like the pipelines are changing. What what oil goes through that is remaining the same. So in that complexity, we have to adapt. And the difference between a successful communicator or a brand marketer or marketing person is how well he or she adapts to the current technological advancements and
[41:54] the current scenario. And I think that’s the solution. I mean basic tenets remains the same. Let’s kind of take 2 examples of some crisis that have come. One is your TCS example and then another startup which is a Unicorn, which is the lens cut. Same issue but very different way to manage it. In terms of reputation management. One went with tech and influencers, the other went very straight to the eye response. So is there some differentiation happening with tech savvy startups the way they manage reputation with say a Godrej or
[42:28] A Tatas or the Birla’s and the, you know, the old age industrials type of groups in managing reputation, How is that going to change now? Nothing is going to change. What is important is, and I love the statement which Amit always says reputation is 90% behaviour and 10% communication. The crisis management part comes in that 10% communication organizations beat startups or legacy organizations need to 1st focus on the behavior. If the basis is correct, everyone is a human of the day, they might make mistake, but if
[43:00] more or less in a consistent manner, the behavior is acceptable, good. As a good corporate social citizen, small incidences would be pardoned by the stakeholders. You once you have the trust, when you have build the trust or consistent behavior, the stakeholders would also pardon you. But you need to also have that bit of resilience to take that for that small period, correct? But the basic, the most important thing is the behavior. Is it done knowingly is the question. I mean if it is unknowingly then you deserve to be badgered by
[43:30] the stakeholder. If it is inadvertent happening and you go and responsibly consider OK this was a slip, people will give you a chance. The stakeholders, the consumers, the regulators will give you a chance because they know this company is not known for this. This happens in end of the day humans. Shit happens but it can be controlled. But your basic principle is that behavior has to be authentic. I hope I answered that question. In a way, yes, what I was seeking. But yeah, there is a very fundamental way companies should deal with this whole crisis management is what you have
[44:01] directly kind of bought out in this. Process itself, crisis management process. It’s a. It’s a. No, I’ll tell you why. Podcast. Correct. And I think you should have some more such conversations. I’ll tell you I wrote a blog because of my conversations with one of the Co founder, not the one who has been in the media on the recent crisis. And apparently there is an agency who writes to me saying why don’t you put this out as your blog? And I get these sort of as well, they must have Googled something and they found this Lenskart guy and my conversation and praising
[44:34] him and that kind of stuck somewhere through Google and they write to me, can you put this? I said, look, I don’t write such things. Why are you trying to make me an influencer in a crisis management situation? I wrote back to that agency, whoever they contacted me now, why this is great. My interaction with the founder and being in that industry and pulling a problem out and having a conversation with him and then putting some good word about their business philosophy and their business model in a blog is one thing. But utilizing somebody praising you, again, this is comes to the
[45:08] whole negative part of it. It’s not ethical. And I wanted to understand, do all companies follow this sort of ethical or they use these middle men or these agencies to kind of nudge people like ours or some other influencer to talk this whole Gundagiri or the Gabbar sort of thing, making one noise above the other to suppress whatever is going on in the media? So. The state answers all companies don’t do it most. Companies triple AI or I don’t remember, you have some Advertising Standards they. Find an easy way out and it’s
[45:41] not the right way. It’s an unethical manner to do it. I think most recent companies, most companies are decent, don’t do this. I can say generally I’m not even going to respond. Both of that I can tell you interacting with a lot of startups sub current. But then then see they are they are looking at temporary ratifications. If the behavior at the base, this doesn’t change, this is a good, this won’t be a repeatable incidence. You know, it might get repeated. I mean, it’s, it’s end of the day, the base, you know, your, your DNA, your fitrat that has to change. If that doesn’t change, then till how long would you want? Let me tell you very lot of
[46:12] confidence that people, the stakeholders who are using social media or watching you or reading about you, they can read through scrutiny levels are high. There’s enough data, correct And they can read through and they see patterns. If the pattern is that this guy comes and always screws up and then goes back and then comes, people are going to call it out, they’re going to read through it and they’re going to pager you for that. The point I’m trying to make is if you are 10 times your behavior has been great, 11th time you do a small problem inadvertently, you’ll still be pardoned and you need to work towards that. That behavior has to be
[46:43] consistent. Consciously consider. You shouldn’t be a repeated offender. That’s the completed good. Doer you know what is the right word for that? Samaritan, Yeah, lovely. I want to ask you in terms of what you talked about, some of those metrics that you use to measure and report the reputation of a company. Is there something that we can talk about by openly giving it in an industry so that everybody reports it as well? Can that be regulated or the
[47:13] government also kind of ask for it? I don’t know what regulation, I’m no authority on creating a regulation around it, but. Make it a software reporting to the stakeholders openly. So let me tell you, I’m a firm believer of what gets measured gets done. So if if it’s about building reputation, if you measure it at multiple levels, you can build reputation. Now I’ll give you an example. What are the measures that one can consider and look at in terms of whether your reputation is doing well now? So a good reputation brings four or five aspects which are directly related to a corporate
[47:43] or an individual, whatever. Let’s take this example of a corporate. If your stock price is on a rise or moves positively, even when certain things are not OK, that’s because of your reputation. That’s one indicator. So it’s on the investor friendliness in terms of if your reputation is good and your campaigns are doing well, you have increased footfalls. It’s a great indicator into your stores or whatever. Third is if your reputation is good, you can demand or command a premium on your product. That’s a great indicator #4 could be your employee engagement scores are high
[48:16] because your employees are engaged. That’s also because your reputation. That means your behavior. That means all the stuff that do in a consistent manner are doing well for your newer employees, prospective employees. If there’s an attraction for to come and apply to you, that means your reputation is. So there are various nuances at a macro level where these objectives, if they are worked upon in the parallel lengths of the overall reputation, you can actually measure them. Now, once you have these objectives, you can further break them down in terms of PR tactical measures. So if your reputation is going to be high, what is the tactical
[48:49] measure for that? Your share of voice is high in the media. The positive mentions are high. The crisis alleviation is pretty much good. When a crisis happens, it dies out very because there’s so there there are a lot of ways in which it can be construed and showcase that the reputation is really good and it it grows up there. Then finally, larger measures where you where you within a peer set of your similar sized companies measure your equity. What is the salience? What is the disposition towards you? What do consumers talk about you? What does what do investors? So it’s a complete science
[49:19] behind it, you know, art and science of reputation building. So it’s all possible. And when today’s. Technology, everything is available. Amit, you’ve done a lot at the industry, the praxis and events. You see the most admired companies from an employer point of view is been done and published in the media. Top 100 most admired companies. Is there something on reputation as well? You guys can pull it up Top 100 most admired companies in terms of reputation and how they manage a reputation crisis based on all the parameters that we’ve just discussed. That would be a great way to
[49:52] even. And there’s a badge also they put in their media and communication most 100 admired company. I think that is a great way to signal indirectly out of all this social media clutter and PR and articles being written ghostwritten, God knows what. But there is some authenticity in this. If they put that badge, I think that is something that I was wanting to. Why aren’t you attempted that or? You brought that up, I’ll tell you. I’ll answer that in two parts in less than 3 minutes. Lovely. So Part 1, you’ve been silent throughout.
[50:23] No, Sudhita has been saying reputation and I believe that fully is a some part of many things. OK and I summed it up in one of an essays I wrote to explain PR to a commoner that the ultimate objective of doing things to enhance reputation or to build publications are across the GREAT principle. The great principle is to increase goodwill, increase respect, increase engagement, increase affinity or admiration. Like Sujith, use that word and increase trust. I use the word increase commonly, but there are different words that you can prefix to these five. So there are magazines, there
[50:54] are organizations that do listings using one of the so you have the great places to work that is to target current and future employees. There is a list that comes of India’s most trusted companies, which is trust. There is a list of India’s most respectable Fortune, Forbes Business World Business to have done over the years. I know what you’re saying. One list that reputation doesn’t exist, but what we did 10 years ago and Sujit has been genuine beneficiary of that effort from our end is you bring out a list of India’s top 30 Kopcon teams or corporate communication teams
[51:25] because these are the teams that actually help the company’s story we told to the world and help the company behave right. Like I think Sujit has survived in Tata Chemicals for some Godrej because his management listens to him and he’s able to tell the management what is the right thing to do when they’re maybe sometimes lost or what is the wrong thing they’re doing, if at all they do. And I, I have a great belief from childhood because my mother and father bought Sintal soap when I was a kid and this Godrej company in the brand will only give me the right and good things. My home had a Godrej cupboard. Now, Godrej has two parts and whatever, but that point is consumer products or locks, we
[51:58] use whatever we believe in the quality that the company offered, right? And therefore, forget that for a moment. We bring out a list called the top 30 cockroaches 10 years in a row. And one year he did not take part for some reason, but eight or nine times out of 10, his team topped it. And that’s another reason we’ve trusted each other. And this is completely done independent. It’s a separate jewelry which does it. I don’t interfere, I don’t influence anything. The point is that for me is the list of the top most reputed companies in India, which are those 30 top companies which run the reputation. But I know. That’s a surrogate, right? If I do a current.
[52:29] PPT But you’re right, I. Just did this before the podcast I was researching the most top 100 reputed companies in India. No. So I. Think I think I think that GPT gave. Me, the most admired 100 companies, great places to work. I think we should. Push Amit to start something like this. That’s what I was alluding to, why he’s been. Quite a good outcome of this conversation. Good idea for us, Yeah, I’d. Be more than glad to, you know, support you with tech or whatever. I’ve got enough engineers around
[52:59] or lying around in start-ups. Something conceptualized because we have done a lot. I mean, in my crystal days we did the index. I simply find. It but I got dissolution with these lists beyond the one we do only because everyone does these lists then and they completely water them down, narrow them down and make it almost becomes no, it has. To be again your reputation, it has to be unbiased, true? Then that is your reputation. About the reputation, most reputation of our data as well. I’d be more than happy to meet you you guys next time in Delhi,
[53:29] Bombay car. Yeah, I have a friend called Raj Naik. He’s building something called The Happiest Places to Work. So a couple of days back I saw a LinkedIn post by him and somebody else where he’s trying to build a list of happiest places to work again. It’s something like Great places. To work, Gallup has already got a product. Gallup has already got a product on happiness and they do these surveys, but this is paid for by that company for telling them what the issue. In fact, I’ve done it for one of the companies that I was heading and they did it and I asked what are the remedial measures to improve that Whatever the
[54:00] happiness or it was not happiness, it was something else and it’s not part of the culture or whatever. So Gallup has a product for it as well, but there’s no product and ChatGPT gives me garbage it. Gives the same garbage to us also. There you are. Lovely. Let’s move on to caucus the politics, the NGOs, I think this is his, yes. So Amit, yes Sir, you’ve done the corporate, the whole 9 yards. Now you are into the service sector. I worked advising with ISKCON. I’m on their Advisory Board. We’re doing a lot of
[54:32] philanthropic work along with them, along with our and there’s a lot of commitment with their. One of the things that we see again, reputation is certain NGOs, the way they have got that bad name in the past and whatever the governments have done to clean up that regulation is again their reputation. They somehow or people perceive them is in the name of NGO. They’re antisocial. Many of them including Ishqon as well. Oyeto Hindu, why is he coming to us or whatever, or it is Ishqonite or it’s Vaishma night
[55:06] and you know, we don’t engage or. So again, there is a big need for people like you to do a clean up of how this, this whole sector as a whole, as a cohort is perceived. You’re innocently putting a lot of pressure on me now, but. I’m taking no air, right second innings, the third innings. I want to retire from 1 innings and chill but anyway so life. Is long man, I’m trying to gather. From your from your statements, I didn’t figure out a question, but you’re trying to say that these not for profits also have lots to do in building a
[55:38] reputation that. Reputation. Endears them to people in a positive way versus being again, like I said here, as the world grows rapidly, as more and more people embrace digital technology, education, these problems will come and stay for a long time. Again, going back to the word, it’s about behavior. Again, I have nothing against ISKCON. I’ve had great admiration for the way ISKCON has built places of worship in various Indian cities over the years. But I’ve seen in many places, including outside the country, there are people who belong to the ISKCON group who stand and there are other even Christian communities and others who do
[56:09] that, who try and sell a book, maybe Bhagavad Gita or Krishna. And sometimes people have not taken nicely. I mean, that’s why. But I don’t see anything wrong. I don’t think they’re doing anything harmful. I don’t think they’re doing anything that is anti social in that sense. It’s just sometimes being a little bit pushy towards a thought process that they believe in to people and people have maybe not taken it in the right way. And like I was in Europe a few days back, there were corners where there were these JV logos in the corner, which is Jehovah’s Witnesses or JW people standing there to tell you, hey, Christ is only savior. And these are things that they do bringing a little ill reputed
[56:40] or bad name to that whole gesture of theirs. But I think like Sujit said, the world and India especially forgives and forgets easily. So people have a problem with fighting days and you refer a couple of names a little earlier. Also TCS and Let’s Cut it was a major issue in the last week of April, first week of May, it’s 11th, 12th May as we record today and people are forgetting this and next thing will come up soon and something else will come up. So we live from Monday to Friday, Saturday, Sunday, we do our own thing and then a new thing comes up. So that’s how the world has been. I just feel as long as the
[57:11] entire world can start embracing the idea of being kind to everybody, being good and nice to themselves and people in their immediate facility, I think that should be our focus of I have an 8 year old daughter, I don’t advise her to accept any religion. I say the only religion should be a region of humanity where your prayer should be to ask the universe to make you kind, good and nice every day. And she says, how is it different Papa? I say kind is to anybody who can’t do anything back to you. Nice is to people who are nice to you and good is to yourself. You can ensure these three things, the world will be a better place. And I think I’m going to say
[57:41] that to the NGOs listening to this. Not for religious set up, for this Christian, Hindu, Muslims seek that. Just focus on being nice, good and kind. Everything will fall in place. But they also need to learn this whole template of reputation management. That’s where I was alluding to. So I’m saying practices. There’s nothing but the people that things also need to be done behave in a certain way that others will respect them. That’s about it. They cannot dominate their philosophy over others and but just as a data. Point they cannot calling. The issue bookselling is just one part of their activity,
[58:13] adoption of villages, giving employment and the whole thing in the district where we have Co sponsored their because they’ve developed the biggest tribal center. I think it’s there in one of our, yeah. Yeah, which is good. So nice. Yeah. So I think they’re not. Plenty of spending. Time and effort in communicating that is OK. 9 percent, 10%. Communications are the religious, yeah. So you have the budget. You should sponsor their communication. You then will communicate this. This behavior is not good enough. I’m just saying. I have told Guruji also who’s come on my podcast also.
[58:43] What do you want? What do you have to spending? Money on communication is not worth it. Rather use that money. To the next IIT gold medalist man and there are enough, you know, IIT New York bankers and all who are working with him. I’m I’m no one to tell him here. There are enough people from abroad who are PhD, PhD who are working with him here. So there’s enough brain power. What there the whole reputation is that the community acceptability of the purpose is lost. I think it’ll happen slowly and gradually. I think these are groups of people who have yet seen the
[59:14] power of communicating the go to work they do. And it’ll happen in in due course. Yeah, a lot of things have have moved rapidly in the last five years. It’ll happen. It’s a matter of time. Politics. What do you want to tell our politicians, including Mamta Didi because she’s a lot in the news now. But Rahul Gandhi, Modiji and all the others, how do they manage or should manage and manage their reputation Because I guess their reputation is like the shots of the reels. What Chhota They think that you know, it’s like a short or a
[59:45] real people will listen and forget. So it doesn’t matter to their reputation. Many of such politicians it builds. Up over a period of time. Yeah, again, like I said a little while ago, people forget, like all these people who lost the elections last week, whether Stalin in Tamil Nadu. People will forget good or bad about them in a week’s time. They focus on the incumbent. That’s it. They remember maybe after five years, when the elections come again or if there’s a scam or control that comes out because of the new regime in place, they may be talked off for a few days. But people forget like for example. Karnataka state has that. I’m as CM right now. Very few will remember the
[60:18] former CMS. One or two will remember. Some people forget. People have very limited attention span and I think I don’t know if any politician listens to these podcasts because I don’t know if they have the time to listen. If you have a belief they listen to it, great. My only advice? No, some advisers and the think tanks on India, they’re listening, they’re following. So I think my uncertain advice to politicians is same thing. Just be kind, nice and good. Everything will fall in place. That’s it. Sometimes somebody else will win an election. Politics thing on on their reputation very quickly
[60:51] otherwise there’ll be some things from ipaq and other advisors of theirs filing a suit and blocking us on social I. Know. So I’m very, I’m very straightforward. I have my likes and dislikes, but I when it’s public comment, I want to be fair to everybody that everybody should just do the right thing. Some people don’t do the right thing as a choice they make and we have to just watch live with it and move on. I want to bring cinema, which is more akin to the cultural reputation of a cohort of a population or a country. Here, as we shift gears, I think all of us have seen Durander.
[61:24] There are a whole positive, negative reaction on which side of the boundary of India you are sitting. And then there’s a huge amplification as well. Does entertainment and the narrative and the influencers really shape the perception and PR of the entertainment industry? Yeah, I think entertainment industry, with my limited knowledge about entertainment industry, is that, you know, movies are a reflection of what’s happening in the society. I don’t know how true that is, but I firmly believe that you see stuff happening and that
[61:55] gets replicated in the film and people associate with it. And that’s how movies get successful. If you see in the past few successful large movies, there’s been Animal, there has been Durander, I mean, of almost the same genre, you know, violence, killings. I’ve not seen any happy movie in the recent past. It may be a reflection of the society, may not be a reflection of society, but I guess that works for the directors and the producers. They make money, the people are supporting it. But from an angle of reputation building of the country like Bollywood is also representative
[62:27] of India’s brand externally. Reputation kind of a thing. I think more movies, I would personally feel the reputation of the country might also go up if films in the genre of you know, things which India is actually known for, say for example, in the current times, progress of education are young dividend, the young people in the country also aspirational. You know, I think the spiritual chaotic, the wedding Sutras of India, I mean those are predominantly shown to the world
[62:58] and this is what happens in India. But seldom it is shown about entrepreneurs in India. Seldom it is shown about the What are the? Great shark tanks. Yeah, I mean, if movies are made around that. About a few, yes. And there’s a focus on the craft, you know, the focus on craft in terms of not about the celebrity, but the craft of making the films, the quality of making the films, the quality of studios to be enhanced in the country. I mean, how many great studios do we have which are equivalent to Hollywood or you know, the kind of quality which comes in how many global standard films come out of India?
[63:31] Historical, we have such a large legacy and a culturally rich heritage that we have. How many movies get made on that? I mean that is the thing which is great for the world, you know, improving the representation of women in the Bollywood, the way they are treated or way they are represented, that itself can be a great put for actually raising the bar of reputation for the Indian film and entertainment industry. I think the various things which come through, but what ultimately sells is violins and stuff. I don’t know, I’m not an expert on that, but that’s fortunately unfortunately getting sold. But to build a country brand
[64:03] through Bollywood, I mean, just imagine Switzerland, an Indian filmmaker had to go there to start making films with Mr. Shahrukh Khan and Kajol and all. And those places have become places where people still go just to see where they were short like Interlaken or you know, those kind of places. Why can’t they be replicated in India? Show the cultural diversity, the the biodiversity, the places in India which are worth doing. What do we end up showing is slums? What do we end up showing is things which are, you know, people look down upon globally, they might say what a great movie, but at the back of their
[64:35] mind, what is that reputation getting built about the country? So I mean, there’s a lot of thinking that needs to go in terms of building a reputation for the nation through probably Bollywood. I have a very quick question here. I love music, so I have, and that too on the English side of things. So whether now recently Jackson, Michael Jackson. Then we had a few other singers whose biopics have been created. Now, obviously it’s based on certain autobiography or a certain script. Does that biopic add to the reputation posthumously to that individual or does that deplete
[65:08] it? You know, in the movie hall on Michael Jackson, the people who never knew about it that he did this or he did this. How does that kind of work posthumously through cinema for individuals or for a certain incident or a certain like Hershel Mehtaka, that whole thing impacting different corporates posthumously or whatever. That’s a big influence on companies and individuals as well when it comes out in the cinema. How do you see that impacting reputations? I’ll take this person so we can have a mistake for spin. I heard you.
[65:39] I don’t know if use will differ. We haven’t discussed it before. I strongly believe that reputation has no value after your death, OK, Unless your brand name is attached to a company, OK. And then somebody says this guy like Ratan Tata, after his death, some people said something, oh, this happened, That happened. It didn’t affect the Tata company in a big way. Reputations affect the person when he or she’s alive. When you die, whatever reputation was there, it is there. Somebody can give you a story because you’re not there to defend that. There is no point. That’s my only point. Like even Mahatma Gandhi, he died 50-60 years ago. People who don’t like him for some reason, who don’t even
[66:09] exist in his lifetime will say things. It doesn’t affect Mahatma Gandhi. He’s didn’t his grandkids, great grandkids may get bothered saying, Oh my great grandfather, such a great grand, but somebody’s throwing muck at him. That’s one part. But I don’t personally feel a reputation of a person can people can try and throw. A company. Market it doesn’t affect the person he’s dead and gone. She’s dead and gone so I don’t see that being a big deal. Yeah. How does it matter end of the day is my question if you’re dead and gone when you’re in the alive, yes, it matters. We say something to it matters and people are people have gone through it. Again, I’ll use a controversial example in a very non
[66:41] controversial way of our own. Prime Minister Narendra Modi, right? People through a lot of muck before he became the Prime Minister. Even soon after, he still won a second time in 2014, sorry, 2019, another time in 2024. And maybe we can say, oh, he’s winning with just 30% vote share, which is fine. He’s still winning. And whatever done he he, he has done a bunch of things. You can call it whatever you want to, but he’s done a bunch of things to enhance his reputation in India in the world in the last 10-15 years, despite all the odds against him in the past. And purely talking from an academic point of view, not a political point of view, but I think in the lifetime, whatever
[67:13] we can do to enhance a reputation, we can and we should. After that it doesn’t. Matter, I just add to this is it matters if there’s an inspiration behind it and it can nudge people who are watching that film or write up or whatever and getting inspired to repeat that. So in that Paralanx, it’s very important. I mean, I agree with Amit. For a person after his death, personally, it wouldn’t matter but that reputation or that story or that inspiration or those great things that he or she did, if they inspire more number of people to repeat that, and if it’s adding to the overall good of the country or for the nation or for the people
[67:45] or globally, I mean, why not? I mean, that reputation does matter. I mean that, yeah, people still refer, OK, he’s no more, but what a great guy. He did this. These are the values, he said. Company’s chair, Chairman emeritus’s wife Parameshwar got rich. When I think of her name, I think of the crusade she fought against AIDS, right? I feel that that is where I come from. Give you an example. That’s it. For me, that is 1. And when I think of any person who’s no more, I only think of one or two positive things about them. Unless they were dead criminals. Again, I give you the example earlier as an example, but I say
[68:15] I feel reputation after one’s death is what they were known for in a good way, very rarely in a bad way. That’s my belief. So you believe that reputation on the new concept that is digital life after death, the reputation on. That I don’t. Have There’s a lot of things happening now. Digital life after death. Immortalizing somebody I don’t know. No thought about creating. Their own digital life after death, Archiving it for posthumous reputation management. There’s something happening, the concept, and so according to
[68:45] you, that doesn’t matter. According to me, I don’t know much about it, so I won’t comment about it. Read 1 of my blogs on this because on the healthcare side, we are trying to do something to revive a person after 50 years of longevity and all So that’s a separate thing but there’s also one of the things ideas that we’ve written now on his digital life after death DAD in one of our 40 bets on healthcare life sciences. So it’s there and I’ll show you that. Come on. I made an interview also on ET. Now let’s kind of move that to
[69:16] II’s reputation, country’s reputation. And I think this is the last one. I think we are running a little bit short and I also have to head out how is India’s reputation change with professionals and PR and all this along with what India is doing in the global landscape. How do you think a country like India has really emerged out? I think. Country branding is a very interesting subject and I think. Making India, there are different logos, different things, all that. OK, Should you know the the people behind that? The government should probably
[69:48] focus on four or four or five of the key aspects of what are the real pillars which can build India’s reputation. 1 is your demographic dividend. 1 is the diversity that we have. One is the ability to be highly educated. I mean, if you see in the West, most of the IT companies are run by Indians, you know, multiple things which which are really the pillars of any country. To be successful, I think we need to the whole whole act of innovation, the the startup culture, the very fact that India is only country where probably UPI is so successful at that scale.
[70:20] It takes a lot of great decision, a lot of technology. I mean these which should be communicated well across the world. The very fact that our honourable Prime Minister Modi, I mean the way he’s build the brand across, build relationships with countries across the world. These are elements which go into the overall branding of the country. What happens is that it is not uniform. I mean, say, for example, I mean I have nothing against Bollywood, but most of the films I’ve seen which get featured in international markets are either showing the chaotic nature of
[70:51] Indian society. Poverty and and what? Poverty. I mean, why? I mean show the right side. I mean so many nations. I don’t want to name them, but when you actually see their videos or their films, they show that side of the society which people are in awe of. Not that they are trying to suppress anything but they are choosing to communicate what will help people build a great reputation in the minds about that country. Why can’t us do that? Why can’t we in India do that? I mean there’s so many positives. It can go a long way in terms of attracting investments, attracting reverse flow of
[71:23] talent into the country. Of course, we have lot of issues also but then you know they are solvable over a period of time. I mean just a simple thing like ease of doing business. If it is much more communicated in a manner which is more empathetic and more understood by people, I think there are so many nuances which can actually build up the whole reputation of the country. One last question go, there is also also now I hear is making aircraft engines and a year ago we had operations indoor and there are people on both sides talking about how this is gone about some say India did very
[71:55] well in those four days or 88 hours. And there’s other narrative, how’s this sort of crisis or war like situation for a country be managed with proper reputation and PR management. I I think I’m not qualified to give an answer to this kind of thing. It’s too much. No, no, I know but I’m also I’m just wanting your thoughts. How could we have done better on that narrative and think how things have been peddled? I don’t think I’m an authority on that, so I will just pass the question, but. My short answer to you is I
[72:26] think we did fine. One year has passed, life has gone ahead, people have moved on. That’s in in brief here. There’s so much that has happened between those 52 weeks and now. I think we’ll we’ll pause here and take some rapid fire on the digital side. I think it’s a different podcast altogether. I think we should probably do once more when we are all three together and shoot another podcast on the tech and all because that’s where I’ve done a lot of work and investment and cross meshing with reputation and ORM and a lot of learnings from there.
[72:57] I think we should do that on a separate part. Sure, happy to do that in person, but I mean. You know, yeah, I know. I think this is where, yeah, we should. Viewers may want to see that for two years, so we’ll do April 2020 eighth. No, no, no, no. That time we would be much more. The tech world would have shaped up much, much faster. Yeah. And we’ll be most mostly all in our post retirement idea of hallucinating what the whole situation would be. So let’s talk about if our listeners could do something or one thing tomorrow to strengthen their own reputation. What would your advice be?
[73:30] Two sentences? Their own personal reputation. You’ve talked about it in the podcast as well, but just one single message. And do a consistent demonstration of that authentic behaviour. And during crisis management. Become. Become unanimous. Be calm, lovely. Be calm. And you know, ignore a holistic view. Don’t ignore. Never ignore. Be calm and compose. Incidents cannot be ignored. I think the cycle for a crisis is it starts with an incidence, a small incidence which if it’s ignored, not control at the bud, becomes a crisis.
[74:00] So that’s where you need to play. Be calm and handle it. Your own legacy. You debunked that posthumously. Nothing remains. I don’t. Believe in legacy? What sort? Of legacy you want to leave as PR professionals and. The dream is that the world should forget me one or after I die. Personal belief. Yeah. That’s not something. Yeah, I’m. Serious, I don’t care for legacy. I. Feel my mirko Teri book like chor Jana TK I will run your legs. Co-author Hey, everything in my life has co-authors. I tell you, left the legacy to. Him, he’s, he’s said it on
[74:32] record on your podcast. After him, everything comes to me. Oh. Yeah, entire books. Books are royalty for him forever. Because Sujit and I have similar thinking. Whatever we earn from not our regular goes to charity. So even a lot of the money that we got from this book, not lot, maybe 50,000 or 1,00,000, went to causes, went to charities, yeah. That’s really great and admirable, but I would say it’s just not about the value in terms of monetary terms, but sort of whole host of things which, you know, you opened up my mind after reading the book and all the experts that you
[75:04] have put their own thoughts and ideas. By the way, who are your top three people who you would rate from their contribution to the book, their essays that readers you must read? You know, I don’t want to single out one or two or three people from the 75. Each one gave their commentary because of what they bring to the table. But in general, if there are two people I want to call out because they’re the oldest people in the book. 1 is Doctor Pragniya Ram, who’s a very, very interesting professional and the other is. Mr. Chapter, right? Sorry. I think she’s featured on the second chapter.
[75:35] In the initial chapter, correct. Correct. That’s correct. And Mr. Oja, period. For me, these two stand out only because of their age and what they’ve done for more than 5050, 60 years. They’re in their 80s and they’re still trying to make a difference in someone’s life or the other. I would call out these two specially just for the other 75. People won’t have an issue with these two names being singled out by me. Yeah. I worked with Roger on Mumbai’s master plan. He has worked a lot with me and his daughter now runs the legacy row and I, if I’m not mistaken, her name Roger’s daughter who
[76:08] runs the communication business of Raja Pereira. Gentlemen, there’s so many take is beyond the book that I’ve got and I think we should have another round on a very different the tech side of things as things are evolving and a future view of how this whole landscape will shift. I think that’s a separate thing, but I would definitely say I really enjoyed talking to you the whole list of thoughts and ideas beyond the book that I’ve gained and I’m sure our listeners would also gain out of this interaction that and the
[76:39] conversation that we have had. Finally, we were able to get together, both of you on one side and me on the other side. But it was really an interesting take away on the podcast. We had so many things to cover. We couldn’t do a justice on all of them. But I really thank you for taking this time out and talking to our listeners and talking to me. And I look forward to scheduling something face to face very soon. Sure. We’re grateful to you for choosing us and we hope this close to two hour conversation that people will listen in parts or in one go is going to be worthwhile their time done. Sure.
[77:11] Thank you. Thank you, KK. Thanks, Kapil. Thanks a lot, lovely. See you soon. Bye. Bye.
